Re: WebSign standardization effort - Encryption considerations


Hi Teow,
I'm sure that  SecureAge can handle message encryption.
 
What I did was really pointing out that there are few use-cases for using encryption in a Web Sign scenario.  HTTPS is the industry-standard for facilitating encryption between users and web applications.  In case you need additional encryption, it must depend on that the target for the signed message is not the web provider (your organization, your bank, your government), but some other party that you don't want the provider to know about, at least not the message content. 
 
This to me this looks like an e-mail system, something that I simply concluded was another possible standards effort.
 
The anticipated Web Sign standards effort is primarily intended for high-volume, structured, and transaction-oriented operations such as purchase orders which are preferably checked, and stored by the local purchasing system before eventually sent away to a selling party.   Other applications include "signing off" doctor appointments, on-line banking payments, and income tax declarations.  In none of these scenarios there is an obvious need for encryption beyond what is already provided by HTTPS.  Similar schemes (although highly national), are already used by millions of Scandinavians.  None of these schemes offer encryption options.
 
In fact hardly nobody publishes certificates either (not even the FKPI users do that AFAIK!), in spite of being a prerequisite for the kind of encryption you mention, unless we are talking about proprietary approaches or reliance on local key stores.  The latter does not fit to well in a standard.
 
regards
Anders Rundgren
Working for a major US computer security company but here acting as an individual
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 12:33
Subject: RE: WebSign standardization effort - Encryption considerations

Hi Anders,

 

One of our eB2Bcom partners has responded to your latest post along the following lines:-

 

The SecureAge Web Form (web encryption), Web Sign (web signing), and Secure Webmail already take care of all the security requirements described below in Anders Rundgren’s post - including basic support for no plain text and attachment being sent to the server at all. The various technical difficulties mentioned by the author have also been resolved in our solutions.

 

We disagree with the author's position in terms of usefulness of such technology. Specifically, we believe that there is an increasing trend of enterprises moving various IT related functions to the Web (like moving to webmail). Naturally, if the client based solution requires security, the same goes with web based version.

 

On the other hand, the author is right in saying that a standardization effort in this area may not be too useful at present.

 

Teow Hin

CEO SecureAge

 

 

Andrew Ferguson

Director eB2Bcom (Asia Pacific) Pte Ltd

71 Ubi Crescent #06-07

Excalibur Centre

Singapore 408571

Web: http://www.eb2bcom.com

Email: Andrew.Ferguson@eb2bcom.com

Tel +65-67468286 Fax: +65-6841-4676

H/P Australia: +61-41222-3940

H/P Singapore: +65-939-21362

UK :+44-121-288-2426


From: Anders Rundgren [mailto:anders.rundgren@telia.com]
Sent: Thursday, 1 September 2005 4:01 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: WebSign standardization effort - Encryption considerations

 

A potential WebSign standards effort should IMHO not deal with explicit message encryption, as I believe this is a less generally useful "feature". It is rather the provider (your employer, your bank, your government), that sets the policies, including encryption, for a specific web application and acts accordingly.   In an off-line e-mail scenario you don't have this option and due to this, policies effectively becomes a client issue.  However, finding the proper encryption key to use is a major problem that clients should not have to deal with in a properly designed web application.  To protect contents against the web application provider's eyes seems like an odd measure, unless we are actually talking about WebMail.

 

Secure WebMail is though an entirely separate issue as it must conform to S/MIME rather than using XML security.  In addition, if Secure WebMail is to be used with untrusted mail providers, it requires the use of Wet Signatures (open forms), and "semi-fat" clients, as the providers MUST NOT (if message encryption is to be used), be able to "see" any clear text data, including possible attachments.  The latter means that the standard way to handle attachments today, "upload", simply is not an option.  Secure WebMail is due to those constraints, IMO another [possible] standardization effort.  Even if a Secure WebMail standardization effort indeed were launched, I would not build such a scheme for untrusted providers as the "market" for such a scheme seems limited when standard e-mail clients comes for free and already handles this scenario.  The possible use-case with public computers do not align well with encrypted content as public computers cannot be assumed to be safe for communicating truly classified or very private information, for that you should use your mobile phone or PDA, "model 2007" with built-in TPM (Trusted Platform Module) support.

 

Comments?

 

Anders Rundgren

Working for a major US computer security company but here acting as an individual



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